[Gaviotas] Bienvenue Manfred!

[Dave Dingman]

Thanks, Dave.  Actually, I am more curious than argumentative these days.  I appreciate the technical aspects to your questions, as they can only serve to provide a basis for expanding my knowledge of such things.  If not directly, at least by offering a framework through which I can examine such things in the future.  I find your inability to find appropriate answers capable of satisfying your questions somewhat intriguing, but I wonder how much of that is simply due to asking the wrong people rather than it is due to the pump's potential for not existing as advertised.  Consider our resource base for information - a visionary community administrator, an author, and a small but growing group of eco-tourists/investors.  Who among these can answer such engineering related questions?  In this light, I appreciate your continued efforts.  Having said that, I don't think that any of us could have easily cleared up your questions as you seem to think.  Nor, are any of us downplaying the 'truth', which is a concept relative to your own experiences.   The trip in June 2005 was about investing in the 2nd phase of development in the Marandua project and the Las Gaviotas expansion.  My fellow friends of Gaviotas and I were guests of the Colombian Military.  Our time spent in Gaviotas was a site visit designed to give us a tour of the model for the bio-communities to be built in the Marandua region.  Originally, we had planned to spend the night in Las Gaviotas, however, as guests of the military (who were more concerned for my safety than I was) and considering the needs of other members of our tour group (it was an international delegation of invited guests, ZERI scientists and investors) we spent only a few hours on the ground in Gaviotas before continuing on to Marandua.  On the ground in Gaviotas, we saw everything we would have wanted to see based on the book.  Most of the focus, and rightly so, was on the reforestation aspect of the project since that is what the Marandua project is about.  We witnessed everything from planting to resin tapping to colophon processing.  We witnessed the production and botling of water - as this is the mechanism paying for more reforestation (due to the high profitability).  Of course, we toured the former health clinic turned water processing plant.  We witnessed the hydro-electric dam, the fuel wood generator, the community.  We saw the pump, the windmill, the see-saw, the solar water heaters, etc.  For me, I was not directly inspired by the pump prior to my visit, so I was not of the mind to spend a lot of time questioning it's operation and design.  I saw it.  I saw Paolo operate it.  I operated it.  It fit the description.  That's all I needed.  Had I been of the mind to question it further, there would not have been an opportunity to examine it save for the unrealistic request for them to uninstall it, which would have taken more hours than we had time for and caused the community unnecessary hardship.  I have operated many pumps here in the states and elsewhere.  What I can say is that the claims of easy operation are correct.  How it works is still a mystery obviously.  But, it does work.  Based on other technology documents that have circulated through this listserv, the operational measurements have been made as well.  That is, someone has taken the time to examine the advantages, disadvantages and rate of displacing water (gal/hour).  So, others have examined this technology much closer.  Upon our return to Bogota, my fellow travelers and I visited Centro Las Gaviotas.  Here, our time was spent in a discussion with Paolo in his office about a number of things, but mostly relating to the biodiesel aspect of the project.  Following our talk, Paolo gave us a tour of the biodiesel factory.  Afterward, we spent the remainder of our time playing on the demo technologies on display at the facility.  Here, we once again played with the pump, as well as riding the see-saw model.  Again, in spite of not knowing the full extent to their operation, they do work.  And, that is all I can say.  None of us were of the mind to question these things as far as you have been.  Having said that, it was here at Centro Las Gaviotas that the workers provided all of us with the manuals you are all now familiar with.  We didn't even need to request them.  They were given freely.  So, I use that as evidence that they are not trying to deceive anyone by not answering questions.  While you may never be able to visit Las Gaviotas for yourself, if you know Spanish or a translator, you should be able to visit Centro Las Gaviotas in Bogota and they may be able to better assist you.  I'd call first to explain the purpose for your visit so that they may better serve you, but other than that, you should be fine.  I know others have simply stopped by, which may have hindered their experience there.  They are all very nice people there, but how many of us would accomodate someone (especially a gringo) that just comes in unannounced off the street into our workplace?  Also on the topic of asking the right people... over the years I have heard rumors of a group of ZERI Masters Program candidates working to create a Las Gaviotas technologies document.  At one point, I had even stumbled upon a ZERI wiki page outlining the biodigester design, which I was never able to find again as I think they took the page down or made it private. Note, that is ZERI not Gaviotas.  Further delaying this has been the ZERI program's inner-problems.  I don't know the full extent to these other than that they have existed.  In any case, they're not my business.  My point here is that, people are trying to disseminate the information the best they can and there are a number of reasons it has taken so long.  So, I would suggest that it isn't so much about True Believers and (if not non-believers) Curious Skeptics as it is about life's little quirks and asking the right people in the right way.      Furthermore, while many people have visited these places over the years, the nature of Gaviotas is such that there are many inspirations that people seek to satisfy with their experiences there and they have little or nothing to do with the engineering of the sleeve-pump - so far.  For me, I was simply open to the experience as a whole.  I was never fascinated with one technology over another so much as the entire system.  As I reflect on my experiences there, aside from finding my heart, I came away most fascinated and inspired by the work of George Chan and his integrated farming system design, which has little to do with Gaviotas at all.             You say that the question is not whether or not such a pump can be built, but rather if such a pump actually exists.  If you are to ask someone if such a pump exists, surely, they would show you the pump and that it works as proof of it's existence.  Yours are engineering questions, so isn't the question really 'can such a pump be built as described?'  That seems your point of contention, rather than the question of existence.  I mean, you don't doubt that the community has pumps.  Not that it matters, I'm just saying.  Anyway, this is a lot of words that still won't answer any of your questions.  Still, thanks for sharing your thoughts and concerns.  I do appreicate them.  Have a good holiday.Dave Dingman        > From: pinefarm at uniontel.net> To: gaviotas at greenbuilder.com> Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 20:04:28 -0600> Subject: Re: [Gaviotas] Bienvenue Manfred!> > > 	You should be studying for exams, not arguing with me! What you are > referring to is a piece I wrote when I first tried to figure the pump out. > That, surprisingly, was several years ago now. I only copied it because the > other writer said he was an engineer and I thought he might be interested.> 	A double acting pump pumps on both the up and down stroke. They are > large, motor driven, and horizontal. I could go on but, these details are no > longer very interesting since, by now there is no doubt in my mind that the > sleeve pump is a myth and that none of the True Believers on this list will > be convinced by technical arguments. > 	The question is a very simple one and one that you and countless > others could easily have cleared up. It is. Does the pump that is described > in the book actually exist? In other words, Did the Gaviotas people invent a > pump where the outside pipe moves and the piston remains stationary and is > that the pump they installed by the thousands?> 	The question is not could such a pump be built but does it exist? > After all this time and all the people who have talked to Lugari, gone to > the factory in Bogata and visited Gaviotas, nobody can tell me they have > actually seen such a pump nor did anybody to my knowledge ever ask Lugari > directly if such a pump exists and if that act of creation actually took > place as the book says.> 	You went there. I ask you. They supposedly made thousands of them. > Did you examine one when you were there? If you did, why are you and others > either downplaying the importance of the truth or trying to make up > scenarios where it might be possible to build one. To me, the last picture > in the manual shows a galvanized cylinder being screwed onto a pvc pipe. > That is exactly what a conventional pump would look like and exactly what I > would expect a pump to look like.> 	I rest my case.    Dave Johnson> Well ,not quite. Sevrral months ago, Weisman was on a talk show on Wisconsin > public television. I e-mailed in this question about the pump. They read it > to him and his response was simply that I had been pursuing him for > sometime. That was it, no answer and no follow up. Dave> > > > > On Thu, 18 Dec 2008 13:04:52 -0600, Dave Johnson wrote>> I have to run but will address all of this next week. Meanwhile, I >> have never been critical of Gaviotas since I have no basis for that. >> I have been critical of the information about Gaviotas from others. >> That's a different thing.   Dave>> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Dave Dingman" <dave_dingman at hotmail.com>>> To: <gaviotas at greenbuilder.com>>> Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2008 11:24 AM>> Subject: Re: [Gaviotas] Bienvenue Manfred!>> >>>>>> Dave,Well, that is certainly one of the more well-articulated of your >>> posts regarding your concerns and questions about the sleeve-pump and >>> windmill.  I think the disconnect we have had in the past may come from >>> your use of language such as 'dumb idea'.  I wonder if you may not be >>> better received by using less confrontational language.  Many people, >>> myself included, may misconstrue your words to be somewhat offensive > given >>> the level of fascination and adoration toward Las Gaviotas.  You > obviously >>> have a lot of experience and knowledge regarding pumps.  Perhaps too > much >>> for a response appropriate to your level of concern and interest on this >>> list.  Hopefully, that might change as more people translate and >>> experiment with the information in the manuals.  In any case, your post >>> brought to mind some interesting topics that I'd like to discuss a > little >>> bit.  First of all, I think that you have touched on a pseudo-problem > with >>> the abundance of romantic journalism used in the book.>>>  The notion of describing the technologies as 'breakthroughs' that stand >>> to 're-invent the world' is often misunderstood.  I'll start with the > idea >>> of the technologies as 'breakthroughs'.  After my visit in 2005, I have >>> engaged in some level of research regarding pumps and windmills and > other >>> technologies.  Although, I am sure that I cannot respond to your > questions >>> as specifically as you would prefer.  Having said that, I can relate to >>> where you are coming from.  The more one studies the history of these >>> technologies, the less technologically advanced these inventions seem. >>> Perhaps, that is part of their brilliance - simplicity.  There have been > a >>> few other posts here regarding this issue of technologies as >>> breakthroughs.  Like those posts, I will reframe my interpretation of > the >>> term, 'breakthrough'.  The real 'breakthrough' in these technologies is > in >>> the utility for application in los llanos.  That is to say, the Las >>> Gaviotas sleeve-pump is able to be produced and insta>>> lled in a manner that is affordable to the local llanero population.  > This >>> is in contrast to the use of conventional pumps which could not be >>> procured by villages and settlers as affordably, if at all.  This brings >>> us to the idea of 'a village to re-invent the world'.  Here, I think > that >>> Weisman uses very good language to illustrate his point.  That is, I > place >>> the emphasis on 'a village'.  Las Gaviotas is greater than the mere sum > of >>> its technological parts.  It is not the development of a sleeve-pump or > a >>> windmill that makes the community so revolutionary.  Rather, it is the >>> whole of the Las Gaviotas system itself that 're-invents the world'.  It >>> is a model of successful sustainable development - a zero-emission >>> community located in one of the most inhospitable places on Earth.  It > is >>> a thriving example of such emerging concepts as biological capital, >>> biomimicry and integrated systems design.  And, it certainly stands to >>> re-invent development in Colombia, which as many mig>>> ht note, is the U.S. of South America.  The rest of it comes down to >>> inspiration.  As Paolo notes, you cannot make a carbon copy of Las >>> Gaviotas.  However, we can be inspired by it to re-invent our own local >>> soultions.  Coming back to the sleeve-pump, given my previous > statements, >>> I would not look to the sleeve-pump for anything 'new' in terms of >>> technology.  Sure, there may be some modifications to old ideas, but > that >>> is really all it is.  I think.  Admittedly, I am no pump engineer.  > Having >>> said that, your comments brought a few more things to mind.  I wonder if >>> you might clarify them for me.   Okay, so if it is actually 2 >>> single-action pumps working in conjunction with one another, how is that >>> different than a double-action pump?  Does 1+1 = 2?In other words, what >>> degree of misinformation do you feel they are giving by calling it a >>> double-action pump?You mention the realtionship of depth and water >>> pressure in the pumping system.  And, rightly so.  According to the old >>> ZER>>> I video and some images in the documentary produced by Gioconda, the >>> ability of the sleeve-pump to pump from such depths requires more than > one >>> pump working in tandem.  The video shows an installment of 4 pumps.  > Just >>> as the see-saw version of the application uses 2 pumps.  Would not such > a >>> set-up diffuse the operating pressure among the pumps?  Again, you'll > have >>> to use your imagination, as I do not have a diagram of what is happening >>> below ground in this situation. You also mention valves - or a lack >>> thereof.  Specifically, that if there is no one-way valve in the >>> inner-pipe that the pump would drain once pumping stopped.  This is >>> actually consistent with the operation I witnessed.  What is the problem >>> with this method?  There is no need for continuous pumping with the >>> sleeve-pump.  This is where the windmill application becomes useful.  > Also >>> relating to valves, where do the leather seals come into play?  Would > they >>> not serve the function of trapping water in the pipe or s>>> leeve?As for the hole in the ground, I believe that there is a plastic >>> casing used.  So yes, there is an outer-sleeve of sorts with which to >>> insert the moving sleeve without sloshing in the mud.  I don't know > about >>> the remainder of this question.  In my lack of engineering expertise, I >>> might dare to blindly reckon that a lever of some form is in place and >>> that the casing is cemented in the mud - not with concrete, but in the >>> sense that the soil in los llanos is ideal for brick-making and thus > could >>> serve as a cement solution of sorts in this instance.  Anyway, thanks > for >>> your continued efforts in pursuing answers.  Deep down, I appreciate it >>> very much and probably more than I let on.  Salud!Dave Dingman           >> >>> From: pinefarm at uniontel.net> To: gaviotas at greenbuilder.com> Date: Thu, > 18 >>> Dec 2008 07:33:45 -0600> Subject: Re: [Gaviotas] Bienvenue Manfred!>> > As >>> I have said many times, moving the outer pipe is a dumb idea, that's why >> >>> no pump that I ever heard of does it that>>>  way.  I stand by that. Dave>>>>>> Now, the "Sleeve pump. I don't >>> understand it at all. First, it is not a>> double action pump. It is > two >>> single action pumps. Even if it were>> double action, that type pump > has >>> been around for some hundred years.>> Its true that, if you use a > suction >>> type pump, you are limited to about>> 30 feet of water but, hardly > anyone >>> uses that type pump. They all put>> the piston at the bottom of the > pipe >>> and lift the water. The old>> windmill pump on my farm uses this type > as >>> do all other old pumps in the>> area. So, nothing new there either.>> >>> Much is made of the "heavy piston", which this pump holds stationary by> >> >>> moving the cylinder or sleeve. The piston can be made of plastic and>> >>> thus weigh less than the plastic pipe. The author says that the>> >>> friction between the piston and the cylinder in conventional pumps>> >>> makes them hard to operate. Well, the same problem exists whether you>> >>> move the sleeve or the piston. It still has>>>  to seal and that requires a>> close fit. Finally, if you are pumping > at >>> 40 meters, as he says, the>> weight of the water being lifted is great >>> enough to make the piston>> weight and friction irrelevant.>> I don't >>> doubt that the pump is easier to operate than it would be if>> the > piston >>> moved in the sleeve. The illustration shows water moving up>> the > inside >>> of an internal pipe. This pipe diameter is less than half the>> > diameter >>> of the sleeve. If the pipe is 2 inch and the sleeve 4 inch, the>> > amount >>> of water delivered per stroke if the piston moved in the cylinder>> is > 4 >>> times that which would move up the inner pipe. This because pipe>> >>> capacity varies as the square of the diameters. No wonder it is easier!> >> >>> I don't understand how the water will be pumped by moving>> the sleeve >>> up. It seems to me that the water will just squirt out the>> holes in > the >>> bottom of the sleeve, the same holes it flowed in through.>> For it to >>> work you need valves and there are non>>> e. The valves open as>> the sleeve descends, allowing water to enter. >>> Then, they close trapping>> the water in and delivering it.[The >>> illustration isn't clear but, it>> appears as if there is no "one way >>> valve" in the inner pipe. If this is>> so, the pipe would drain, all 40 >>> meters of it, each time you stopped>> pumping.] This is really basic >>> stuff and it hard to see how any>> reciprocating pump could work any >>> other way.>> Finally, in a conventional reciprocating pump, the piston> >> >>> moves and the pipe is stationary. With this design, you would move the> >> >>> outside pipe. How does that work in a hole in the ground? Is the pipe>> >>> slopping around in the mud? Why would anyone do it that way? Do you > need> >>>> another pipe outside the cylinder pipe so it can move? If you do drop >>> it>> down an outside pipe, what would hold the piston stationary so > that >>> the>> pipe can move up and down as the handle is operated. Wouldn't the >>> whole>> thing move? I just don't get it.>> It would>>> be easy to overlook some of these things but, they are, in>> many ways, >>> the heart of the book. They are referred to throughout as>> > breakthroughs >>> in technology. If you are going to "Re-invent the world">> you ought > to, >>> at least, be able to illustrate and describe the tools you>> plan to > use >>> to do that. With all the errors here, it makes me wonder>> about all > the >>> rest, that I have no way of verifying.>> I attended Weisman's lecture > and >>> I bought the book. I did so wanting>> to believe that something >>> significant had been discovered. I spent almost>> 20 years living and >>> working in Third World countries, a lot of that>> working with >>> technology. I e-mailed Weisman with some of these>> questions. Rather >>> than try and clear things up, he simply told me that I>> was the only > one >>> who didn't get it. Well, that could be but, my>> questions remain. Dave >>> Johnson>> Alan: Morris at first told me that there was, unfortunately, > no >>> way to>> verify if what I said was true. There su>>> rely is a way. You don't need>> any more info. All I ever asked was for >>> someone to respond to the>> comments I made. Let someone go over them >>> point by point and, if I'm>> wrong, point that out. I'm not challenging >>> anything except what is shown>> and written in the book. Nothing is >>> needed beyond that. Dave>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> ______________________________________________>>>> >>> ______________________________________________>> ----- Original >>> Message -----> From: "Karl Williaume" <kwilliaume at gmail.com>> To: >>> "Discussion relating to Gaviotas village in Colombia, their> >>> technologies, philosophy, etc" <gaviotas at greenbuilder.com>> Sent: >>> Thursday, November 06, 2008 12:19 AM> Subject: Re: [Gaviotas] Bienvenue >>> Manfred!>>>> Dave,I live in Toronto Ontario. Nobody in Toronto has a >>> Gaviotas Sleeve>> Pump. The average citizen of Toronto is not interested >>> in hand pumping>> water>> from 60 meters below the surface of a dirty >>> city. People are much more>> likely to make use of the>>>  clean, potable, and mostly tasteless city tap>> water. So it's no >>> surprise that nobody in my neighborhood is using a>> Gaviotas sleeve > pump. >>> Does that prove that nobody "has ever seen one"??>> Where I used to > live, >>> which is rural kenya, people drank dirty water out>> of>> a river > because >>> they had no alternative. They have an average life>> expectancy of 45 >>> years, largely because of the effects of water borne>> diseases. Those >>> people would be very happy to have access to the  potable>> water 60 >>> meters below them, and would be very willing to take 5 minutes>> out>> > of >>> their day to pump it. Gaviotas sleeve pumps now exist all over rural>> >>> Latin America for the same reason!>> As a civil engineer, I can say for >>> certain that the sleeve pump is not a>> "dumb idea". I can easily create > a >>> system model of the gaviotas sleeve>> pump>> system and compare it with >>> conventional hand pumps, and quantify the>> advantages of their >>> innovation. Their system is significantly better than>> co>>> nventional hand pumps. An appropriate analogy is: would you rather lift >>> >>> a>> real boulder, or a styrophome boulder from a movie set?>> If you > doubt >>> that there was "ever such a thing", check out the picture at>> >>> http://www.friendsofgaviotas.org/technology.htm>>>> Karl>>>>>>>> On Tue, >>> Nov 4, 2008 at 6:22 PM, Dave Johnson <pinefarm at uniontel.net>>> >>> wrote:>>>>> His argument falls short when it is applied to the so called >>> inventions>>> of>>> Gaviotas, especially to the "sleeve pump". A pump > is >>> a pump. If it works>>> one>>> place, it will work almost any place and >>> yet nobody in the years since>>> the>>> book came out has ever seen > one, >>> not even detailed plans for one. It is a>>> dumb idea and I doubt that >>> there is or ever was any such thing.  Dave>>> Johnson>>> ----- Original >>> Message ----- From: "Heath Synnestvedt" <>>> thapeloheath at gmail.com>>>> >>> To: <gaviotas at greenbuilder.com>>>> Sent: Monday, November 03, 2008 8:21 >>> PM>>> Subject: [Gaviotas] Bienvenue Manfred!>>>>>>>>>>>>  W>>> elcome!>>>> I don't speak French (yet) though i was born in Canada. Yo > si >>> aprendi>>>> espanol en sudamerica, pero aqui en esta lista se usa >>> primeramente el>>>> Ingles.>>>> Like you i was captivated by Alan >>> Weisman's book, and this past May i>>>> had>>>> the privilege of > meeting >>> Paulo Lugari in Philadelphia.>>>> Your paragraph below:>>>>>>>>> Pienso >>> tambien que necesitamos inventar para el nuevo siglo, un tipo > de>>>>>>>>> >>> sociedad diferente. Una communedad como Gaviotas, aunque no siendo > la>>>> >>> unica>>>> de este tipo, represente un modelo interesante de >>> experimento.>>>>  ...represents a beautiful accord with what i heard Sr. >>> Lugari>>>> emphasizing>>>> in his lectures and conversations: The > current >>> state of human>>>> development>>>> on>>>> this planet is at a point > where >>> wake-up calls are well worth acting>>>> upon,>>>> and Gaviotas is just >>> one model of a community creating itself as a>>>> distinct>>>> organism >>> separate from the prevailing (unhealthy) trends.>>>>  A great>>> number of the questions asked of this man were of what>>>> > recommendations >>> he would make for this or that situation. His consistent>>>> answer came >>> with a good-humored smile. Gaviotas came into being in the>>>> desolate >>> tropical plains of a country at war with itself. How to>>>> > replicate>>>> >>> the way Gaviotas operates in Philadelphia? The specific solutions do >>> not>>>> apply in this context. It is the model of respecting >>> everyone's>>>> contribution, decentralization of power and authority and >>> the creative>>>> generation of local solutions to local challenges: this >>> is what he urges>>>> us>>>> to do. Sr. Lugari assures us that although > he >>> is seen as the mouthpiece>>>> for>>>> Gaviotas and he was instrumental > in >>> founding it, he is an ordinary>>>> member>>>> of>>>> the group, not > it's >>> head or leader. "Leaders are for mediocre>>>> societies,">>>> he>>>> > said >>> on a Sunday session.>>>>>>>> Lest i get shunned or worse (it is voting > day >>> tomorrow here in the U.S.)>>>> allow me to say>>>  that i love taking direction from someone i really>>>> deeply>>>> >>> respect, and i enjoy asking people to do things too. On principle, then, >>>>>>> I>>>> don't see this as a mark of a mediocre society as it would > seem >>> Lugari>>>> is>>>> saying. Where it really rings true to me is when > force >>> or threats of>>>> violence are employed by a leader to coerce those who >>> follow. Then,>>>> surely,>>>> it is a mediocre society at best.>>>>>>>> >>> This list is as you heard a great place to come into contact with >>> people>>>> who>>>> are in this field of renewable energy systems. I am >>> currently more of a>>>> student of life, love and wisdom than a >>> professional in any field, but i>>>> have met several of those on here >>> too! I suggest putting out a>>>> simplified>>>> resume/vision message > on >>> here that may attract the attention of someone>>>> looking for a > graduate >>> of such a program as you have been doing. There>>>> are>>>> countless >>> opportunities available! Be specific and the right one will>>>>>>>  open>>>> for you.>>>>>>>> Be well,>>>> Heath Emanuel >>> Synnestvedt>>>> -------------- next part -------------->>>> An HTML >>> attachment was scrubbed...>>>> URL: <>>>> >>> > http://greenbuilder.com/pipermail/gaviotas/attachments/20081103/8ee29d63/atta> chment.html>>>>>>>>> >>> _______________________________________________>>>> Gaviotas mailing >>> list>>>> Gaviotas at greenbuilder.com>>>> >>> http://greenbuilder.com/mailman/listinfo/gaviotas>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> _______________________________________________>>> Gaviotas mailing >>> list>>> Gaviotas at greenbuilder.com>>> >>> http://greenbuilder.com/mailman/listinfo/gaviotas>>>>> -------------- > next >>> part -------------->> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...>> URL:>> >>> > <http://greenbuilder.com/pipermail/gaviotas/attachments/20081106/82a05b0c/att> achment.html>>> >>> _______________________________________________>> Gaviotas mailing > list>> >>> Gaviotas at greenbuilder.com>> >>> http://greenbuilder.com/mailman/listinfo/gaviotas>>>>>> >>> _______________________________________________> Gavio>>> tas mailing list> Gaviotas at greenbuilder.com> >>> http://greenbuilder.com/mailman/listinfo/gaviotas>>> _________________________________________________________________>>> Send e-mail anywhere. No map, no compass.>>> http://windowslive.com/Explore/hotmail?> ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_anywhere_122008>>> -------------- next part -------------->>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...>>> URL: >>> > <http://greenbuilder.com/pipermail/gaviotas/attachments/20081218/52efd796/att> achment.html>>>> _______________________________________________>>> Gaviotas mailing list>>> Gaviotas at greenbuilder.com>>> http://greenbuilder.com/mailman/listinfo/gaviotas>>>>>>>> >> _______________________________________________>> Gaviotas mailing list>> Gaviotas at greenbuilder.com>> http://greenbuilder.com/mailman/listinfo/gaviotas> > _______________________________________________> Gaviotas mailing list> Gaviotas at greenbuilder.com> http://greenbuilder.com/mailman/listinfo/gaviotas

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