[Gaviotas] Bienvenue Manfred!

[pinefarm at uniontel.net]

	You should be studying for exams, not arguing with me! What you are 
referring to is a piece I wrote when I first tried to figure the pump out. 
That, surprisingly, was several years ago now. I only copied it because the 
other writer said he was an engineer and I thought he might be interested.
	A double acting pump pumps on both the up and down stroke. They are 
large, motor driven, and horizontal. I could go on but, these details are no 
longer very interesting since, by now there is no doubt in my mind that the 
sleeve pump is a myth and that none of the True Believers on this list will 
be convinced by technical arguments. 
	The question is a very simple one and one that you and countless 
others could easily have cleared up. It is. Does the pump that is described 
in the book actually exist? In other words, Did the Gaviotas people invent a 
pump where the outside pipe moves and the piston remains stationary and is 
that the pump they installed by the thousands?
	The question is not could such a pump be built but does it exist? 
After all this time and all the people who have talked to Lugari, gone to 
the factory in Bogata and visited Gaviotas, nobody can tell me they have 
actually seen such a pump nor did anybody to my knowledge ever ask Lugari 
directly if such a pump exists and if that act of creation actually took 
place as the book says.
	You went there. I ask you. They supposedly made thousands of them. 
Did you examine one when you were there? If you did, why are you and others 
either downplaying the importance of the truth or trying to make up 
scenarios where it might be possible to build one. To me, the last picture 
in the manual shows a galvanized cylinder being screwed onto a pvc pipe. 
That is exactly what a conventional pump would look like and exactly what I 
would expect a pump to look like.
	I rest my case.    Dave Johnson
Well ,not quite. Sevrral months ago, Weisman was on a talk show on Wisconsin 
public television. I e-mailed in this question about the pump. They read it 
to him and his response was simply that I had been pursuing him for 
sometime. That was it, no answer and no follow up. Dave




On Thu, 18 Dec 2008 13:04:52 -0600, Dave Johnson wrote
> I have to run but will address all of this next week. Meanwhile, I 
> have never been critical of Gaviotas since I have no basis for that. 
> I have been critical of the information about Gaviotas from others. 
> That's a different thing.   Dave
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Dave Dingman" <dave_dingman at hotmail.com>
> To: <gaviotas at greenbuilder.com>
> Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2008 11:24 AM
> Subject: Re: [Gaviotas] Bienvenue Manfred!
> 
> >
> > Dave,Well, that is certainly one of the more well-articulated of your 
> > posts regarding your concerns and questions about the sleeve-pump and 
> > windmill.  I think the disconnect we have had in the past may come from 
> > your use of language such as 'dumb idea'.  I wonder if you may not be 
> > better received by using less confrontational language.  Many people, 
> > myself included, may misconstrue your words to be somewhat offensive 
given 
> > the level of fascination and adoration toward Las Gaviotas.  You 
obviously 
> > have a lot of experience and knowledge regarding pumps.  Perhaps too 
much 
> > for a response appropriate to your level of concern and interest on this 
> > list.  Hopefully, that might change as more people translate and 
> > experiment with the information in the manuals.  In any case, your post 
> > brought to mind some interesting topics that I'd like to discuss a 
little 
> > bit.  First of all, I think that you have touched on a pseudo-problem 
with 
> > the abundance of romantic journalism used in the book.
> >  The notion of describing the technologies as 'breakthroughs' that stand 
> > to 're-invent the world' is often misunderstood.  I'll start with the 
idea 
> > of the technologies as 'breakthroughs'.  After my visit in 2005, I have 
> > engaged in some level of research regarding pumps and windmills and 
other 
> > technologies.  Although, I am sure that I cannot respond to your 
questions 
> > as specifically as you would prefer.  Having said that, I can relate to 
> > where you are coming from.  The more one studies the history of these 
> > technologies, the less technologically advanced these inventions seem. 
> > Perhaps, that is part of their brilliance - simplicity.  There have been 
a 
> > few other posts here regarding this issue of technologies as 
> > breakthroughs.  Like those posts, I will reframe my interpretation of 
the 
> > term, 'breakthrough'.  The real 'breakthrough' in these technologies is 
in 
> > the utility for application in los llanos.  That is to say, the Las 
> > Gaviotas sleeve-pump is able to be produced and insta
> > lled in a manner that is affordable to the local llanero population.  
This 
> > is in contrast to the use of conventional pumps which could not be 
> > procured by villages and settlers as affordably, if at all.  This brings 
> > us to the idea of 'a village to re-invent the world'.  Here, I think 
that 
> > Weisman uses very good language to illustrate his point.  That is, I 
place 
> > the emphasis on 'a village'.  Las Gaviotas is greater than the mere sum 
of 
> > its technological parts.  It is not the development of a sleeve-pump or 
a 
> > windmill that makes the community so revolutionary.  Rather, it is the 
> > whole of the Las Gaviotas system itself that 're-invents the world'.  It 
> > is a model of successful sustainable development - a zero-emission 
> > community located in one of the most inhospitable places on Earth.  It 
is 
> > a thriving example of such emerging concepts as biological capital, 
> > biomimicry and integrated systems design.  And, it certainly stands to 
> > re-invent development in Colombia, which as many mig
> > ht note, is the U.S. of South America.  The rest of it comes down to 
> > inspiration.  As Paolo notes, you cannot make a carbon copy of Las 
> > Gaviotas.  However, we can be inspired by it to re-invent our own local 
> > soultions.  Coming back to the sleeve-pump, given my previous 
statements, 
> > I would not look to the sleeve-pump for anything 'new' in terms of 
> > technology.  Sure, there may be some modifications to old ideas, but 
that 
> > is really all it is.  I think.  Admittedly, I am no pump engineer.  
Having 
> > said that, your comments brought a few more things to mind.  I wonder if 
> > you might clarify them for me.   Okay, so if it is actually 2 
> > single-action pumps working in conjunction with one another, how is that 
> > different than a double-action pump?  Does 1+1 = 2?In other words, what 
> > degree of misinformation do you feel they are giving by calling it a 
> > double-action pump?You mention the realtionship of depth and water 
> > pressure in the pumping system.  And, rightly so.  According to the old 
> > ZER
> > I video and some images in the documentary produced by Gioconda, the 
> > ability of the sleeve-pump to pump from such depths requires more than 
one 
> > pump working in tandem.  The video shows an installment of 4 pumps.  
Just 
> > as the see-saw version of the application uses 2 pumps.  Would not such 
a 
> > set-up diffuse the operating pressure among the pumps?  Again, you'll 
have 
> > to use your imagination, as I do not have a diagram of what is happening 
> > below ground in this situation. You also mention valves - or a lack 
> > thereof.  Specifically, that if there is no one-way valve in the 
> > inner-pipe that the pump would drain once pumping stopped.  This is 
> > actually consistent with the operation I witnessed.  What is the problem 
> > with this method?  There is no need for continuous pumping with the 
> > sleeve-pump.  This is where the windmill application becomes useful.  
Also 
> > relating to valves, where do the leather seals come into play?  Would 
they 
> > not serve the function of trapping water in the pipe or s
> > leeve?As for the hole in the ground, I believe that there is a plastic 
> > casing used.  So yes, there is an outer-sleeve of sorts with which to 
> > insert the moving sleeve without sloshing in the mud.  I don't know 
about 
> > the remainder of this question.  In my lack of engineering expertise, I 
> > might dare to blindly reckon that a lever of some form is in place and 
> > that the casing is cemented in the mud - not with concrete, but in the 
> > sense that the soil in los llanos is ideal for brick-making and thus 
could 
> > serve as a cement solution of sorts in this instance.  Anyway, thanks 
for 
> > your continued efforts in pursuing answers.  Deep down, I appreciate it 
> > very much and probably more than I let on.  Salud!Dave Dingman           
> 
> > From: pinefarm at uniontel.net> To: gaviotas at greenbuilder.com> Date: Thu, 
18 
> > Dec 2008 07:33:45 -0600> Subject: Re: [Gaviotas] Bienvenue Manfred!> > 
As 
> > I have said many times, moving the outer pipe is a dumb idea, that's why 
> 
> > no pump that I ever heard of does it that
> >  way.  I stand by that. Dave> > > > > > Now, the "Sleeve pump. I don't 
> > understand it at all. First, it is not a> > double action pump. It is 
two 
> > single action pumps. Even if it were> > double action, that type pump 
has 
> > been around for some hundred years.> > Its true that, if you use a 
suction 
> > type pump, you are limited to about> > 30 feet of water but, hardly 
anyone 
> > uses that type pump. They all put> > the piston at the bottom of the 
pipe 
> > and lift the water. The old> > windmill pump on my farm uses this type 
as 
> > do all other old pumps in the> > area. So, nothing new there either.> > 
> > Much is made of the "heavy piston", which this pump holds stationary by> 
> 
> > moving the cylinder or sleeve. The piston can be made of plastic and> > 
> > thus weigh less than the plastic pipe. The author says that the> > 
> > friction between the piston and the cylinder in conventional pumps> > 
> > makes them hard to operate. Well, the same problem exists whether you> > 
> > move the sleeve or the piston. It still has
> >  to seal and that requires a> > close fit. Finally, if you are pumping 
at 
> > 40 meters, as he says, the> > weight of the water being lifted is great 
> > enough to make the piston> > weight and friction irrelevant.> > I don't 
> > doubt that the pump is easier to operate than it would be if> > the 
piston 
> > moved in the sleeve. The illustration shows water moving up> > the 
inside 
> > of an internal pipe. This pipe diameter is less than half the> > 
diameter 
> > of the sleeve. If the pipe is 2 inch and the sleeve 4 inch, the> > 
amount 
> > of water delivered per stroke if the piston moved in the cylinder> > is 
4 
> > times that which would move up the inner pipe. This because pipe> > 
> > capacity varies as the square of the diameters. No wonder it is easier!> 
> 
> > I don't understand how the water will be pumped by moving> > the sleeve 
> > up. It seems to me that the water will just squirt out the> > holes in 
the 
> > bottom of the sleeve, the same holes it flowed in through.> > For it to 
> > work you need valves and there are non
> > e. The valves open as> > the sleeve descends, allowing water to enter. 
> > Then, they close trapping> > the water in and delivering it.[The 
> > illustration isn't clear but, it> > appears as if there is no "one way 
> > valve" in the inner pipe. If this is> > so, the pipe would drain, all 40 
> > meters of it, each time you stopped> > pumping.] This is really basic 
> > stuff and it hard to see how any> > reciprocating pump could work any 
> > other way.> > Finally, in a conventional reciprocating pump, the piston> 
> 
> > moves and the pipe is stationary. With this design, you would move the> 
> 
> > outside pipe. How does that work in a hole in the ground? Is the pipe> > 
> > slopping around in the mud? Why would anyone do it that way? Do you 
need> 
> >  > another pipe outside the cylinder pipe so it can move? If you do drop 
> > it> > down an outside pipe, what would hold the piston stationary so 
that 
> > the> > pipe can move up and down as the handle is operated. Wouldn't the 
> > whole> > thing move? I just don't get it.> > It would
> > be easy to overlook some of these things but, they are, in> > many ways, 
> > the heart of the book. They are referred to throughout as> > 
breakthroughs 
> > in technology. If you are going to "Re-invent the world"> > you ought 
to, 
> > at least, be able to illustrate and describe the tools you> > plan to 
use 
> > to do that. With all the errors here, it makes me wonder> > about all 
the 
> > rest, that I have no way of verifying.> > I attended Weisman's lecture 
and 
> > I bought the book. I did so wanting> > to believe that something 
> > significant had been discovered. I spent almost> > 20 years living and 
> > working in Third World countries, a lot of that> > working with 
> > technology. I e-mailed Weisman with some of these> > questions. Rather 
> > than try and clear things up, he simply told me that I> > was the only 
one 
> > who didn't get it. Well, that could be but, my> > questions remain. Dave 
> > Johnson> > Alan: Morris at first told me that there was, unfortunately, 
no 
> > way to> > verify if what I said was true. There su
> > rely is a way. You don't need> > any more info. All I ever asked was for 
> > someone to respond to the> > comments I made. Let someone go over them 
> > point by point and, if I'm> > wrong, point that out. I'm not challenging 
> > anything except what is shown> > and written in the book. Nothing is 
> > needed beyond that. Dave> > > > > > > >>> >>>> >> 
> > ______________________________________________> >>> 
> > ______________________________________________> > ----- Original 
> > Message ----- > From: "Karl Williaume" <kwilliaume at gmail.com>> To: 
> > "Discussion relating to Gaviotas village in Colombia, their > 
> > technologies, philosophy, etc" <gaviotas at greenbuilder.com>> Sent: 
> > Thursday, November 06, 2008 12:19 AM> Subject: Re: [Gaviotas] Bienvenue 
> > Manfred!> > >> Dave,I live in Toronto Ontario. Nobody in Toronto has a 
> > Gaviotas Sleeve>> Pump. The average citizen of Toronto is not interested 
> > in hand pumping >> water>> from 60 meters below the surface of a dirty 
> > city. People are much more>> likely to make use of the
> >  clean, potable, and mostly tasteless city tap>> water. So it's no 
> > surprise that nobody in my neighborhood is using a>> Gaviotas sleeve 
pump. 
> > Does that prove that nobody "has ever seen one"??>> Where I used to 
live, 
> > which is rural kenya, people drank dirty water out >> of>> a river 
because 
> > they had no alternative. They have an average life>> expectancy of 45 
> > years, largely because of the effects of water borne>> diseases. Those 
> > people would be very happy to have access to the  potable>> water 60 
> > meters below them, and would be very willing to take 5 minutes >> out>> 
of 
> > their day to pump it. Gaviotas sleeve pumps now exist all over rural>> 
> > Latin America for the same reason!>> As a civil engineer, I can say for 
> > certain that the sleeve pump is not a>> "dumb idea". I can easily create 
a 
> > system model of the gaviotas sleeve >> pump>> system and compare it with 
> > conventional hand pumps, and quantify the>> advantages of their 
> > innovation. Their system is significantly better than>> co
> > nventional hand pumps. An appropriate analogy is: would you rather lift 
>> 
> > a>> real boulder, or a styrophome boulder from a movie set?>> If you 
doubt 
> > that there was "ever such a thing", check out the picture at>> 
> > http://www.friendsofgaviotas.org/technology.htm>>>> Karl>>>>>>>> On Tue, 
> > Nov 4, 2008 at 6:22 PM, Dave Johnson <pinefarm at uniontel.net> >> 
> > wrote:>>>>> His argument falls short when it is applied to the so called 
> > inventions >>> of>>> Gaviotas, especially to the "sleeve pump". A pump 
is 
> > a pump. If it works >>> one>>> place, it will work almost any place and 
> > yet nobody in the years since >>> the>>> book came out has ever seen 
one, 
> > not even detailed plans for one. It is a>>> dumb idea and I doubt that 
> > there is or ever was any such thing.  Dave>>> Johnson>>> ----- Original 
> > Message ----- From: "Heath Synnestvedt" <>>> thapeloheath at gmail.com>>>> 
> > To: <gaviotas at greenbuilder.com>>>> Sent: Monday, November 03, 2008 8:21 
> > PM>>> Subject: [Gaviotas] Bienvenue Manfred!>>>>>>>>>>>>  W
> > elcome!>>>> I don't speak French (yet) though i was born in Canada. Yo 
si 
> > aprendi>>>> espanol en sudamerica, pero aqui en esta lista se usa 
> > primeramente el>>>> Ingles.>>>> Like you i was captivated by Alan 
> > Weisman's book, and this past May i >>>> had>>>> the privilege of 
meeting 
> > Paulo Lugari in Philadelphia.>>>> Your paragraph below:>>>>>>>>> Pienso 
> > tambien que necesitamos inventar para el nuevo siglo, un tipo 
de>>>>>>>>> 
> > sociedad diferente. Una communedad como Gaviotas, aunque no siendo 
la>>>> 
> > unica>>>> de este tipo, represente un modelo interesante de 
> > experimento.>>>>  ...represents a beautiful accord with what i heard Sr. 
> > Lugari >>>> emphasizing>>>> in his lectures and conversations: The 
current 
> > state of human >>>> development>>>> on>>>> this planet is at a point 
where 
> > wake-up calls are well worth acting >>>> upon,>>>> and Gaviotas is just 
> > one model of a community creating itself as a>>>> distinct>>>> organism 
> > separate from the prevailing (unhealthy) trends.>>>>  A great
> > number of the questions asked of this man were of what>>>> 
recommendations 
> > he would make for this or that situation. His consistent>>>> answer came 
> > with a good-humored smile. Gaviotas came into being in the>>>> desolate 
> > tropical plains of a country at war with itself. How to >>>> 
replicate>>>> 
> > the way Gaviotas operates in Philadelphia? The specific solutions do 
> > not>>>> apply in this context. It is the model of respecting 
> > everyone's>>>> contribution, decentralization of power and authority and 
> > the creative>>>> generation of local solutions to local challenges: this 
> > is what he urges>>>> us>>>> to do. Sr. Lugari assures us that although 
he 
> > is seen as the mouthpiece>>>> for>>>> Gaviotas and he was instrumental 
in 
> > founding it, he is an ordinary >>>> member>>>> of>>>> the group, not 
it's 
> > head or leader. "Leaders are for mediocre >>>> societies,">>>> he>>>> 
said 
> > on a Sunday session.>>>>>>>> Lest i get shunned or worse (it is voting 
day 
> > tomorrow here in the U.S.)>>>> allow me to say
> >  that i love taking direction from someone i really >>>> deeply>>>> 
> > respect, and i enjoy asking people to do things too. On principle, then, 
> >  >>>> I>>>> don't see this as a mark of a mediocre society as it would 
seem 
> > Lugari >>>> is>>>> saying. Where it really rings true to me is when 
force 
> > or threats of>>>> violence are employed by a leader to coerce those who 
> > follow. Then,>>>> surely,>>>> it is a mediocre society at best.>>>>>>>> 
> > This list is as you heard a great place to come into contact with 
> > people>>>> who>>>> are in this field of renewable energy systems. I am 
> > currently more of a>>>> student of life, love and wisdom than a 
> > professional in any field, but i>>>> have met several of those on here 
> > too! I suggest putting out a >>>> simplified>>>> resume/vision message 
on 
> > here that may attract the attention of someone>>>> looking for a 
graduate 
> > of such a program as you have been doing. There >>>> are>>>> countless 
> > opportunities available! Be specific and the right one will >>>>
> >  open>>>> for you.>>>>>>>> Be well,>>>> Heath Emanuel 
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