[Gaviotas] Bienvenue Manfred!
Dave Johnson
pinefarm at uniontel.net
Thu Dec 18 13:04:52 CST 2008
I have to run but will address all of this next week. Meanwhile, I have
never been critical of Gaviotas since I have no basis for that. I have been
critical of the information about Gaviotas from others. That's a different
thing. Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Dingman" <dave_dingman at hotmail.com>
To: <gaviotas at greenbuilder.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2008 11:24 AM
Subject: Re: [Gaviotas] Bienvenue Manfred!
>
> Dave,Well, that is certainly one of the more well-articulated of your
> posts regarding your concerns and questions about the sleeve-pump and
> windmill. I think the disconnect we have had in the past may come from
> your use of language such as 'dumb idea'. I wonder if you may not be
> better received by using less confrontational language. Many people,
> myself included, may misconstrue your words to be somewhat offensive given
> the level of fascination and adoration toward Las Gaviotas. You obviously
> have a lot of experience and knowledge regarding pumps. Perhaps too much
> for a response appropriate to your level of concern and interest on this
> list. Hopefully, that might change as more people translate and
> experiment with the information in the manuals. In any case, your post
> brought to mind some interesting topics that I'd like to discuss a little
> bit. First of all, I think that you have touched on a pseudo-problem with
> the abundance of romantic journalism used in the book.
> The notion of describing the technologies as 'breakthroughs' that stand
> to 're-invent the world' is often misunderstood. I'll start with the idea
> of the technologies as 'breakthroughs'. After my visit in 2005, I have
> engaged in some level of research regarding pumps and windmills and other
> technologies. Although, I am sure that I cannot respond to your questions
> as specifically as you would prefer. Having said that, I can relate to
> where you are coming from. The more one studies the history of these
> technologies, the less technologically advanced these inventions seem.
> Perhaps, that is part of their brilliance - simplicity. There have been a
> few other posts here regarding this issue of technologies as
> breakthroughs. Like those posts, I will reframe my interpretation of the
> term, 'breakthrough'. The real 'breakthrough' in these technologies is in
> the utility for application in los llanos. That is to say, the Las
> Gaviotas sleeve-pump is able to be produced and insta
> lled in a manner that is affordable to the local llanero population. This
> is in contrast to the use of conventional pumps which could not be
> procured by villages and settlers as affordably, if at all. This brings
> us to the idea of 'a village to re-invent the world'. Here, I think that
> Weisman uses very good language to illustrate his point. That is, I place
> the emphasis on 'a village'. Las Gaviotas is greater than the mere sum of
> its technological parts. It is not the development of a sleeve-pump or a
> windmill that makes the community so revolutionary. Rather, it is the
> whole of the Las Gaviotas system itself that 're-invents the world'. It
> is a model of successful sustainable development - a zero-emission
> community located in one of the most inhospitable places on Earth. It is
> a thriving example of such emerging concepts as biological capital,
> biomimicry and integrated systems design. And, it certainly stands to
> re-invent development in Colombia, which as many mig
> ht note, is the U.S. of South America. The rest of it comes down to
> inspiration. As Paolo notes, you cannot make a carbon copy of Las
> Gaviotas. However, we can be inspired by it to re-invent our own local
> soultions. Coming back to the sleeve-pump, given my previous statements,
> I would not look to the sleeve-pump for anything 'new' in terms of
> technology. Sure, there may be some modifications to old ideas, but that
> is really all it is. I think. Admittedly, I am no pump engineer. Having
> said that, your comments brought a few more things to mind. I wonder if
> you might clarify them for me. Okay, so if it is actually 2
> single-action pumps working in conjunction with one another, how is that
> different than a double-action pump? Does 1+1 = 2?In other words, what
> degree of misinformation do you feel they are giving by calling it a
> double-action pump?You mention the realtionship of depth and water
> pressure in the pumping system. And, rightly so. According to the old
> ZER
> I video and some images in the documentary produced by Gioconda, the
> ability of the sleeve-pump to pump from such depths requires more than one
> pump working in tandem. The video shows an installment of 4 pumps. Just
> as the see-saw version of the application uses 2 pumps. Would not such a
> set-up diffuse the operating pressure among the pumps? Again, you'll have
> to use your imagination, as I do not have a diagram of what is happening
> below ground in this situation. You also mention valves - or a lack
> thereof. Specifically, that if there is no one-way valve in the
> inner-pipe that the pump would drain once pumping stopped. This is
> actually consistent with the operation I witnessed. What is the problem
> with this method? There is no need for continuous pumping with the
> sleeve-pump. This is where the windmill application becomes useful. Also
> relating to valves, where do the leather seals come into play? Would they
> not serve the function of trapping water in the pipe or s
> leeve?As for the hole in the ground, I believe that there is a plastic
> casing used. So yes, there is an outer-sleeve of sorts with which to
> insert the moving sleeve without sloshing in the mud. I don't know about
> the remainder of this question. In my lack of engineering expertise, I
> might dare to blindly reckon that a lever of some form is in place and
> that the casing is cemented in the mud - not with concrete, but in the
> sense that the soil in los llanos is ideal for brick-making and thus could
> serve as a cement solution of sorts in this instance. Anyway, thanks for
> your continued efforts in pursuing answers. Deep down, I appreciate it
> very much and probably more than I let on. Salud!Dave Dingman >
> From: pinefarm at uniontel.net> To: gaviotas at greenbuilder.com> Date: Thu, 18
> Dec 2008 07:33:45 -0600> Subject: Re: [Gaviotas] Bienvenue Manfred!> > As
> I have said many times, moving the outer pipe is a dumb idea, that's why >
> no pump that I ever heard of does it that
> way. I stand by that. Dave> > > > > > Now, the "Sleeve pump. I don't
> understand it at all. First, it is not a> > double action pump. It is two
> single action pumps. Even if it were> > double action, that type pump has
> been around for some hundred years.> > Its true that, if you use a suction
> type pump, you are limited to about> > 30 feet of water but, hardly anyone
> uses that type pump. They all put> > the piston at the bottom of the pipe
> and lift the water. The old> > windmill pump on my farm uses this type as
> do all other old pumps in the> > area. So, nothing new there either.> >
> Much is made of the "heavy piston", which this pump holds stationary by> >
> moving the cylinder or sleeve. The piston can be made of plastic and> >
> thus weigh less than the plastic pipe. The author says that the> >
> friction between the piston and the cylinder in conventional pumps> >
> makes them hard to operate. Well, the same problem exists whether you> >
> move the sleeve or the piston. It still has
> to seal and that requires a> > close fit. Finally, if you are pumping at
> 40 meters, as he says, the> > weight of the water being lifted is great
> enough to make the piston> > weight and friction irrelevant.> > I don't
> doubt that the pump is easier to operate than it would be if> > the piston
> moved in the sleeve. The illustration shows water moving up> > the inside
> of an internal pipe. This pipe diameter is less than half the> > diameter
> of the sleeve. If the pipe is 2 inch and the sleeve 4 inch, the> > amount
> of water delivered per stroke if the piston moved in the cylinder> > is 4
> times that which would move up the inner pipe. This because pipe> >
> capacity varies as the square of the diameters. No wonder it is easier!> >
> I don't understand how the water will be pumped by moving> > the sleeve
> up. It seems to me that the water will just squirt out the> > holes in the
> bottom of the sleeve, the same holes it flowed in through.> > For it to
> work you need valves and there are non
> e. The valves open as> > the sleeve descends, allowing water to enter.
> Then, they close trapping> > the water in and delivering it.[The
> illustration isn't clear but, it> > appears as if there is no "one way
> valve" in the inner pipe. If this is> > so, the pipe would drain, all 40
> meters of it, each time you stopped> > pumping.] This is really basic
> stuff and it hard to see how any> > reciprocating pump could work any
> other way.> > Finally, in a conventional reciprocating pump, the piston> >
> moves and the pipe is stationary. With this design, you would move the> >
> outside pipe. How does that work in a hole in the ground? Is the pipe> >
> slopping around in the mud? Why would anyone do it that way? Do you need>
> > another pipe outside the cylinder pipe so it can move? If you do drop
> it> > down an outside pipe, what would hold the piston stationary so that
> the> > pipe can move up and down as the handle is operated. Wouldn't the
> whole> > thing move? I just don't get it.> > It would
> be easy to overlook some of these things but, they are, in> > many ways,
> the heart of the book. They are referred to throughout as> > breakthroughs
> in technology. If you are going to "Re-invent the world"> > you ought to,
> at least, be able to illustrate and describe the tools you> > plan to use
> to do that. With all the errors here, it makes me wonder> > about all the
> rest, that I have no way of verifying.> > I attended Weisman's lecture and
> I bought the book. I did so wanting> > to believe that something
> significant had been discovered. I spent almost> > 20 years living and
> working in Third World countries, a lot of that> > working with
> technology. I e-mailed Weisman with some of these> > questions. Rather
> than try and clear things up, he simply told me that I> > was the only one
> who didn't get it. Well, that could be but, my> > questions remain. Dave
> Johnson> > Alan: Morris at first told me that there was, unfortunately, no
> way to> > verify if what I said was true. There su
> rely is a way. You don't need> > any more info. All I ever asked was for
> someone to respond to the> > comments I made. Let someone go over them
> point by point and, if I'm> > wrong, point that out. I'm not challenging
> anything except what is shown> > and written in the book. Nothing is
> needed beyond that. Dave> > > > > > > >>> >>>> >>
> ______________________________________________> >>>
> ______________________________________________> > ----- Original
> Message ----- > From: "Karl Williaume" <kwilliaume at gmail.com>> To:
> "Discussion relating to Gaviotas village in Colombia, their >
> technologies, philosophy, etc" <gaviotas at greenbuilder.com>> Sent:
> Thursday, November 06, 2008 12:19 AM> Subject: Re: [Gaviotas] Bienvenue
> Manfred!> > >> Dave,I live in Toronto Ontario. Nobody in Toronto has a
> Gaviotas Sleeve>> Pump. The average citizen of Toronto is not interested
> in hand pumping >> water>> from 60 meters below the surface of a dirty
> city. People are much more>> likely to make use of the
> clean, potable, and mostly tasteless city tap>> water. So it's no
> surprise that nobody in my neighborhood is using a>> Gaviotas sleeve pump.
> Does that prove that nobody "has ever seen one"??>> Where I used to live,
> which is rural kenya, people drank dirty water out >> of>> a river because
> they had no alternative. They have an average life>> expectancy of 45
> years, largely because of the effects of water borne>> diseases. Those
> people would be very happy to have access to the potable>> water 60
> meters below them, and would be very willing to take 5 minutes >> out>> of
> their day to pump it. Gaviotas sleeve pumps now exist all over rural>>
> Latin America for the same reason!>> As a civil engineer, I can say for
> certain that the sleeve pump is not a>> "dumb idea". I can easily create a
> system model of the gaviotas sleeve >> pump>> system and compare it with
> conventional hand pumps, and quantify the>> advantages of their
> innovation. Their system is significantly better than>> co
> nventional hand pumps. An appropriate analogy is: would you rather lift >>
> a>> real boulder, or a styrophome boulder from a movie set?>> If you doubt
> that there was "ever such a thing", check out the picture at>>
> http://www.friendsofgaviotas.org/technology.htm>>>> Karl>>>>>>>> On Tue,
> Nov 4, 2008 at 6:22 PM, Dave Johnson <pinefarm at uniontel.net> >>
> wrote:>>>>> His argument falls short when it is applied to the so called
> inventions >>> of>>> Gaviotas, especially to the "sleeve pump". A pump is
> a pump. If it works >>> one>>> place, it will work almost any place and
> yet nobody in the years since >>> the>>> book came out has ever seen one,
> not even detailed plans for one. It is a>>> dumb idea and I doubt that
> there is or ever was any such thing. Dave>>> Johnson>>> ----- Original
> Message ----- From: "Heath Synnestvedt" <>>> thapeloheath at gmail.com>>>>
> To: <gaviotas at greenbuilder.com>>>> Sent: Monday, November 03, 2008 8:21
> PM>>> Subject: [Gaviotas] Bienvenue Manfred!>>>>>>>>>>>> W
> elcome!>>>> I don't speak French (yet) though i was born in Canada. Yo si
> aprendi>>>> espanol en sudamerica, pero aqui en esta lista se usa
> primeramente el>>>> Ingles.>>>> Like you i was captivated by Alan
> Weisman's book, and this past May i >>>> had>>>> the privilege of meeting
> Paulo Lugari in Philadelphia.>>>> Your paragraph below:>>>>>>>>> Pienso
> tambien que necesitamos inventar para el nuevo siglo, un tipo de>>>>>>>>>
> sociedad diferente. Una communedad como Gaviotas, aunque no siendo la>>>>
> unica>>>> de este tipo, represente un modelo interesante de
> experimento.>>>> ...represents a beautiful accord with what i heard Sr.
> Lugari >>>> emphasizing>>>> in his lectures and conversations: The current
> state of human >>>> development>>>> on>>>> this planet is at a point where
> wake-up calls are well worth acting >>>> upon,>>>> and Gaviotas is just
> one model of a community creating itself as a>>>> distinct>>>> organism
> separate from the prevailing (unhealthy) trends.>>>> A great
> number of the questions asked of this man were of what>>>> recommendations
> he would make for this or that situation. His consistent>>>> answer came
> with a good-humored smile. Gaviotas came into being in the>>>> desolate
> tropical plains of a country at war with itself. How to >>>> replicate>>>>
> the way Gaviotas operates in Philadelphia? The specific solutions do
> not>>>> apply in this context. It is the model of respecting
> everyone's>>>> contribution, decentralization of power and authority and
> the creative>>>> generation of local solutions to local challenges: this
> is what he urges>>>> us>>>> to do. Sr. Lugari assures us that although he
> is seen as the mouthpiece>>>> for>>>> Gaviotas and he was instrumental in
> founding it, he is an ordinary >>>> member>>>> of>>>> the group, not it's
> head or leader. "Leaders are for mediocre >>>> societies,">>>> he>>>> said
> on a Sunday session.>>>>>>>> Lest i get shunned or worse (it is voting day
> tomorrow here in the U.S.)>>>> allow me to say
> that i love taking direction from someone i really >>>> deeply>>>>
> respect, and i enjoy asking people to do things too. On principle, then,
> >>>> I>>>> don't see this as a mark of a mediocre society as it would seem
> Lugari >>>> is>>>> saying. Where it really rings true to me is when force
> or threats of>>>> violence are employed by a leader to coerce those who
> follow. Then,>>>> surely,>>>> it is a mediocre society at best.>>>>>>>>
> This list is as you heard a great place to come into contact with
> people>>>> who>>>> are in this field of renewable energy systems. I am
> currently more of a>>>> student of life, love and wisdom than a
> professional in any field, but i>>>> have met several of those on here
> too! I suggest putting out a >>>> simplified>>>> resume/vision message on
> here that may attract the attention of someone>>>> looking for a graduate
> of such a program as you have been doing. There >>>> are>>>> countless
> opportunities available! Be specific and the right one will >>>>
> open>>>> for you.>>>>>>>> Be well,>>>> Heath Emanuel
> Synnestvedt>>>> -------------- next part -------------->>>> An HTML
> attachment was scrubbed...>>>> URL: <>>>>
> http://greenbuilder.com/pipermail/gaviotas/attachments/20081103/8ee29d63/attachment.html>>>>>>>>>
> _______________________________________________>>>> Gaviotas mailing
> list>>>> Gaviotas at greenbuilder.com>>>>
> http://greenbuilder.com/mailman/listinfo/gaviotas>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> _______________________________________________>>> Gaviotas mailing
> list>>> Gaviotas at greenbuilder.com>>>
> http://greenbuilder.com/mailman/listinfo/gaviotas>>>>> -------------- next
> part -------------->> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...>> URL: >>
> <http://greenbuilder.com/pipermail/gaviotas/attachments/20081106/82a05b0c/attachment.html>>>
> _______________________________________________>> Gaviotas mailing list>>
> Gaviotas at greenbuilder.com>>
> http://greenbuilder.com/mailman/listinfo/gaviotas>>>> > >
> _______________________________________________> Gavio
> tas mailing list> Gaviotas at greenbuilder.com>
> http://greenbuilder.com/mailman/listinfo/gaviotas
> _________________________________________________________________
> Send e-mail anywhere. No map, no compass.
> http://windowslive.com/Explore/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_anywhere_122008
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL:
> <http://greenbuilder.com/pipermail/gaviotas/attachments/20081218/52efd796/attachment.html>
> _______________________________________________
> Gaviotas mailing list
> Gaviotas at greenbuilder.com
> http://greenbuilder.com/mailman/listinfo/gaviotas
>
>
More information about the Gaviotas
mailing list