[Gaviotas] Bienvenue Manfred!

[Dave Dingman]

Dave,Well, that is certainly one of the more well-articulated of your posts regarding your concerns and questions about the sleeve-pump and windmill.  I think the disconnect we have had in the past may come from your use of language such as 'dumb idea'.  I wonder if you may not be better received by using less confrontational language.  Many people, myself included, may misconstrue your words to be somewhat offensive given the level of fascination and adoration toward Las Gaviotas.  You obviously have a lot of experience and knowledge regarding pumps.  Perhaps too much for a response appropriate to your level of concern and interest on this list.  Hopefully, that might change as more people translate and experiment with the information in the manuals.  In any case, your post brought to mind some interesting topics that I'd like to discuss a little bit.  First of all, I think that you have touched on a pseudo-problem with the abundance of romantic journalism used in the book.  The notion of describing the technologies as 'breakthroughs' that stand to 're-invent the world' is often misunderstood.  I'll start with the idea of the technologies as 'breakthroughs'.  After my visit in 2005, I have engaged in some level of research regarding pumps and windmills and other technologies.  Although, I am sure that I cannot respond to your questions as specifically as you would prefer.  Having said that, I can relate to where you are coming from.  The more one studies the history of these technologies, the less technologically advanced these inventions seem.  Perhaps, that is part of their brilliance - simplicity.  There have been a few other posts here regarding this issue of technologies as breakthroughs.  Like those posts, I will reframe my interpretation of the term, 'breakthrough'.  The real 'breakthrough' in these technologies is in the utility for application in los llanos.  That is to say, the Las Gaviotas sleeve-pump is able to be produced and installed in a manner that is affordable to the local llanero population.  This is in contrast to the use of conventional pumps which could not be procured by villages and settlers as affordably, if at all.  This brings us to the idea of 'a village to re-invent the world'.  Here, I think that Weisman uses very good language to illustrate his point.  That is, I place the emphasis on 'a village'.  Las Gaviotas is greater than the mere sum of its technological parts.  It is not the development of a sleeve-pump or a windmill that makes the community so revolutionary.  Rather, it is the whole of the Las Gaviotas system itself that 're-invents the world'.  It is a model of successful sustainable development - a zero-emission community located in one of the most inhospitable places on Earth.  It is a thriving example of such emerging concepts as biological capital, biomimicry and integrated systems design.  And, it certainly stands to re-invent development in Colombia, which as many might note, is the U.S. of South America.  The rest of it comes down to inspiration.  As Paolo notes, you cannot make a carbon copy of Las Gaviotas.  However, we can be inspired by it to re-invent our own local soultions.  Coming back to the sleeve-pump, given my previous statements, I would not look to the sleeve-pump for anything 'new' in terms of technology.  Sure, there may be some modifications to old ideas, but that is really all it is.  I think.  Admittedly, I am no pump engineer.  Having said that, your comments brought a few more things to mind.  I wonder if you might clarify them for me.   Okay, so if it is actually 2 single-action pumps working in conjunction with one another, how is that different than a double-action pump?  Does 1+1 = 2?In other words, what degree of misinformation do you feel they are giving by calling it a double-action pump?You mention the realtionship of depth and water pressure in the pumping system.  And, rightly so.  According to the old ZERI video and some images in the documentary produced by Gioconda, the ability of the sleeve-pump to pump from such depths requires more than one pump working in tandem.  The video shows an installment of 4 pumps.  Just as the see-saw version of the application uses 2 pumps.  Would not such a set-up diffuse the operating pressure among the pumps?  Again, you'll have to use your imagination, as I do not have a diagram of what is happening below ground in this situation. You also mention valves - or a lack thereof.  Specifically, that if there is no one-way valve in the inner-pipe that the pump would drain once pumping stopped.  This is actually consistent with the operation I witnessed.  What is the problem with this method?  There is no need for continuous pumping with the sleeve-pump.  This is where the windmill application becomes useful.  Also relating to valves, where do the leather seals come into play?  Would they not serve the function of trapping water in the pipe or sleeve?As for the hole in the ground, I believe that there is a plastic casing used.  So yes, there is an outer-sleeve of sorts with which to insert the moving sleeve without sloshing in the mud.  I don't know about the remainder of this question.  In my lack of engineering expertise, I might dare to blindly reckon that a lever of some form is in place and that the casing is cemented in the mud - not with concrete, but in the sense that the soil in los llanos is ideal for brick-making and thus could serve as a cement solution of sorts in this instance.  Anyway, thanks for your continued efforts in pursuing answers.  Deep down, I appreciate it very much and probably more than I let on.  Salud!Dave Dingman           > From: pinefarm at uniontel.net> To: gaviotas at greenbuilder.com> Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 07:33:45 -0600> Subject: Re: [Gaviotas] Bienvenue Manfred!> > As I have said many times, moving the outer pipe is a dumb idea, that's why > no pump that I ever heard of does it that way.  I stand by that. Dave> > > > > > Now, the "Sleeve pump. I don't understand it at all. First, it is not a> > double action pump. It is two single action pumps. Even if it were> > double action, that type pump has been around for some hundred years.> > Its true that, if you use a suction type pump, you are limited to about> > 30 feet of water but, hardly anyone uses that type pump. They all put> > the piston at the bottom of the pipe and lift the water. The old> > windmill pump on my farm uses this type as do all other old pumps in the> > area. So, nothing new there either.> > Much is made of the "heavy piston", which this pump holds stationary by> > moving the cylinder or sleeve. The piston can be made of plastic and> > thus weigh less than the plastic pipe. The author says that the> > friction between the piston and the cylinder in conventional pumps> > makes them hard to operate. Well, the same problem exists whether you> > move the sleeve or the piston. It still has to seal and that requires a> > close fit. Finally, if you are pumping at 40 meters, as he says, the> > weight of the water being lifted is great enough to make the piston> > weight and friction irrelevant.> > I don't doubt that the pump is easier to operate than it would be if> > the piston moved in the sleeve. The illustration shows water moving up> > the inside of an internal pipe. This pipe diameter is less than half the> > diameter of the sleeve. If the pipe is 2 inch and the sleeve 4 inch, the> > amount of water delivered per stroke if the piston moved in the cylinder> > is 4 times that which would move up the inner pipe. This because pipe> > capacity varies as the square of the diameters. No wonder it is easier!> > I don't understand how the water will be pumped by moving> > the sleeve up. It seems to me that the water will just squirt out the> > holes in the bottom of the sleeve, the same holes it flowed in through.> > For it to work you need valves and there are none. The valves open as> > the sleeve descends, allowing water to enter. Then, they close trapping> > the water in and delivering it.[The illustration isn't clear but, it> > appears as if there is no "one way valve" in the inner pipe. If this is> > so, the pipe would drain, all 40 meters of it, each time you stopped> > pumping.] This is really basic stuff and it hard to see how any> > reciprocating pump could work any other way.> > Finally, in a conventional reciprocating pump, the piston> > moves and the pipe is stationary. With this design, you would move the> > outside pipe. How does that work in a hole in the ground? Is the pipe> > slopping around in the mud? Why would anyone do it that way? Do you need> > another pipe outside the cylinder pipe so it can move? If you do drop it> > down an outside pipe, what would hold the piston stationary so that the> > pipe can move up and down as the handle is operated. Wouldn't the whole> > thing move? I just don't get it.> > It would be easy to overlook some of these things but, they are, in> > many ways, the heart of the book. They are referred to throughout as> > breakthroughs in technology. If you are going to "Re-invent the world"> > you ought to, at least, be able to illustrate and describe the tools you> > plan to use to do that. With all the errors here, it makes me wonder> > about all the rest, that I have no way of verifying.> > I attended Weisman's lecture and I bought the book. I did so wanting> > to believe that something significant had been discovered. I spent almost> > 20 years living and working in Third World countries, a lot of that> > working with technology. I e-mailed Weisman with some of these> > questions. Rather than try and clear things up, he simply told me that I> > was the only one who didn't get it. Well, that could be but, my> > questions remain. Dave Johnson> > Alan: Morris at first told me that there was, unfortunately, no way to> > verify if what I said was true. There surely is a way. You don't need> > any more info. All I ever asked was for someone to respond to the> > comments I made. Let someone go over them point by point and, if I'm> > wrong, point that out. I'm not challenging anything except what is shown> > and written in the book. Nothing is needed beyond that. Dave> > > > > > > >>> >>>> >> ______________________________________________> >>> ______________________________________________> > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Karl Williaume" <kwilliaume at gmail.com>> To: "Discussion relating to Gaviotas village in Colombia, their > technologies, philosophy, etc" <gaviotas at greenbuilder.com>> Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2008 12:19 AM> Subject: Re: [Gaviotas] Bienvenue Manfred!> > >> Dave,I live in Toronto Ontario. Nobody in Toronto has a Gaviotas Sleeve>> Pump. The average citizen of Toronto is not interested in hand pumping >> water>> from 60 meters below the surface of a dirty city. People are much more>> likely to make use of the clean, potable, and mostly tasteless city tap>> water. So it's no surprise that nobody in my neighborhood is using a>> Gaviotas sleeve pump. Does that prove that nobody "has ever seen one"??>> Where I used to live, which is rural kenya, people drank dirty water out >> of>> a river because they had no alternative. They have an average life>> expectancy of 45 years, largely because of the effects of water borne>> diseases. Those people would be very happy to have access to the  potable>> water 60 meters below them, and would be very willing to take 5 minutes >> out>> of their day to pump it. Gaviotas sleeve pumps now exist all over rural>> Latin America for the same reason!>> As a civil engineer, I can say for certain that the sleeve pump is not a>> "dumb idea". I can easily create a system model of the gaviotas sleeve >> pump>> system and compare it with conventional hand pumps, and quantify the>> advantages of their innovation. Their system is significantly better than>> conventional hand pumps. An appropriate analogy is: would you rather lift >> a>> real boulder, or a styrophome boulder from a movie set?>> If you doubt that there was "ever such a thing", check out the picture at>> http://www.friendsofgaviotas.org/technology.htm>>>> Karl>>>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 4, 2008 at 6:22 PM, Dave Johnson <pinefarm at uniontel.net> >> wrote:>>>>> His argument falls short when it is applied to the so called inventions >>> of>>> Gaviotas, especially to the "sleeve pump". A pump is a pump. If it works >>> one>>> place, it will work almost any place and yet nobody in the years since >>> the>>> book came out has ever seen one, not even detailed plans for one. It is a>>> dumb idea and I doubt that there is or ever was any such thing.  Dave>>> Johnson>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Heath Synnestvedt" <>>> thapeloheath at gmail.com>>>> To: <gaviotas at greenbuilder.com>>>> Sent: Monday, November 03, 2008 8:21 PM>>> Subject: [Gaviotas] Bienvenue Manfred!>>>>>>>>>>>>  Welcome!>>>> I don't speak French (yet) though i was born in Canada. Yo si aprendi>>>> espanol en sudamerica, pero aqui en esta lista se usa primeramente el>>>> Ingles.>>>> Like you i was captivated by Alan Weisman's book, and this past May i >>>> had>>>> the privilege of meeting Paulo Lugari in Philadelphia.>>>> Your paragraph below:>>>>>>>>> Pienso tambien que necesitamos inventar para el nuevo siglo, un tipo de>>>>>>>>> sociedad diferente. Una communedad como Gaviotas, aunque no siendo la>>>> unica>>>> de este tipo, represente un modelo interesante de experimento.>>>>  ...represents a beautiful accord with what i heard Sr. Lugari >>>> emphasizing>>>> in his lectures and conversations: The current state of human >>>> development>>>> on>>>> this planet is at a point where wake-up calls are well worth acting >>>> upon,>>>> and Gaviotas is just one model of a community creating itself as a>>>> distinct>>>> organism separate from the prevailing (unhealthy) trends.>>>>  A great number of the questions asked of this man were of what>>>> recommendations he would make for this or that situation. His consistent>>>> answer came with a good-humored smile. Gaviotas came into being in the>>>> desolate tropical plains of a country at war with itself. How to >>>> replicate>>>> the way Gaviotas operates in Philadelphia? The specific solutions do not>>>> apply in this context. It is the model of respecting everyone's>>>> contribution, decentralization of power and authority and the creative>>>> generation of local solutions to local challenges: this is what he urges>>>> us>>>> to do. Sr. Lugari assures us that although he is seen as the mouthpiece>>>> for>>>> Gaviotas and he was instrumental in founding it, he is an ordinary >>>> member>>>> of>>>> the group, not it's head or leader. "Leaders are for mediocre >>>> societies,">>>> he>>>> said on a Sunday session.>>>>>>>> Lest i get shunned or worse (it is voting day tomorrow here in the U.S.)>>>> allow me to say that i love taking direction from someone i really >>>> deeply>>>> respect, and i enjoy asking people to do things too. On principle, then, >>>> I>>>> don't see this as a mark of a mediocre society as it would seem Lugari >>>> is>>>> saying. Where it really rings true to me is when force or threats of>>>> violence are employed by a leader to coerce those who follow. Then,>>>> surely,>>>> it is a mediocre society at best.>>>>>>>> This list is as you heard a great place to come into contact with people>>>> who>>>> are in this field of renewable energy systems. I am currently more of a>>>> student of life, love and wisdom than a professional in any field, but i>>>> have met several of those on here too! I suggest putting out a >>>> simplified>>>> resume/vision message on here that may attract the attention of someone>>>> looking for a graduate of such a program as you have been doing. There >>>> are>>>> countless opportunities available! Be specific and the right one will >>>> open>>>> for you.>>>>>>>> Be well,>>>> Heath Emanuel Synnestvedt>>>> -------------- next part -------------->>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...>>>> URL: <>>>> http://greenbuilder.com/pipermail/gaviotas/attachments/20081103/8ee29d63/attachment.html>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________>>>> Gaviotas mailing list>>>> Gaviotas at greenbuilder.com>>>> http://greenbuilder.com/mailman/listinfo/gaviotas>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________>>> Gaviotas mailing list>>> Gaviotas at greenbuilder.com>>> http://greenbuilder.com/mailman/listinfo/gaviotas>>>>> -------------- next part -------------->> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...>> URL: >> <http://greenbuilder.com/pipermail/gaviotas/attachments/20081106/82a05b0c/attachment.html>>> _______________________________________________>> Gaviotas mailing list>> Gaviotas at greenbuilder.com>> http://greenbuilder.com/mailman/listinfo/gaviotas>>>> > > _______________________________________________> Gaviotas mailing list> Gaviotas at greenbuilder.com> http://greenbuilder.com/mailman/listinfo/gaviotas
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